So, if people behave like that, why would a young person be
motivated to study for and then _pay money_ to get licensed?
Just to be verbally abused by some jerk on the air? No, thank
you.

I don't know much about amature radio, but I was interested in it when I
had just finished high school. I got in contact with the local club and
went on an outing with them - we went to the local police station and
they showed off their radios, it was actually quiet fun.

Another one loaned me a receiver so I could listen, it was unable to
broadcast but I had fun with that and ended up returning it. I'm not
really the kind of person to talk on the air, but would love to listen in again..

Anyway, I guess I was really lucky with my local club, maybe because it's
a country(ish) town. I might have got a license, but I was terrible at
morse code and at that time it was a requirement.

I wonder if those guys are still alive.. probably not - they were quiet
elderly and that was 25-ish years ago.

I'm sure things are different now, and I guess it's a lot like BBSing...
surely there are nice people around but it's easy for them to get lost in
the noise.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.53-dev (FreeBSD/amd64)
* Origin: Smuggler's Cove - scove.talismanbbs.com:2323 (21:1/182)

I would tell you there are absolutely great amateur radio operators around and many of them are here actually doing the BBS thing.
We had BBS via radio (it was much less colorful for data speeds) and that's still out there too. I connected to a ham in Nova Scotia's BBS from my home in Elmira, NY via HF Packet so I was transmitting on 14.105Mhz BUT.. it's only 300 baud... So not as much to look at and it's the definition of whatever the opposite of snappy is!
I was lucky too, My dad is a ham (N2NRA) my cousin (KB2KFL) and they were great Elmers (mentors) as you had growing up lending us gear and encouraging us along the way. They hung out with others who were into the fun not so much the soapbox aspect of the hobby.
I can remember junior engineer that transfered to a position our town with Ingersoll-Rand where my father worked. I think the connection through radio made it easy to help Tom settle and his life more stable in the area as a young guy not to out of college. A memorable experiment: He had come from Illinois and a place where they had Touch Tone phones and we were still on pulse. His Voice mail would connect pulse but wouldn't unlock without TT so we hatched a scheme and I had an HT that did tones, so we dialed and I held the radio up to the phone and entered his pin and worked!
I was probably just 13, but it stuck. It was a sort of Can-Do that was there, and the ham that are making things less fun are part of the stuck in the past league of GeT oF My LaWn! type of old men who have have made an unhealthy nostalgia their everything.
They're still out there, there's a lot of the good people still out there doing. I was looking at my BBS welcome letter and I made it quite clear in the values. In fact I took them from the fsxNet use note.

- Have fun!
- Keep it simple
- Be kind, respectful and helpful
- Reject disruptive conduct that willfully incites discord

73
N2QFD//Mal

-------------
][ bst 73 ][
][ de N2QFD][
-------------

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Queen City BBS (21:1/154)

Same thing with HF, frankly. A lot of old-timers are complaining
that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the
Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and
how the kids are all screwed up these days, and b) how his prostate
is acting up again. Can't say I blame them.

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few
years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an
unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to
the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication
were overwhelmed or not working.

HAM always interested me but I never got into it. My next-door neighbor
here was a HAM but has passed away.



--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * telnet:2123/ssh:2122/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

And many of those who see themselves as the gatekeepers of
amateur radio are, frankly, very unpleasant to deal with both
on the air and off. Some others in this thread have mentioned
poor operator behavior on e.g. HF; inappropriate and rude stuff
coming over the air. So often, it's coming from fully licensed
operators who've been on the air for decades and who, bluntly,
have come to feel a sense of ownership over both spectrum and
the hobby as a whole and with it, a sense of entitlement to be
both rude and inappropriate on the air. Not everyone involved
in the hobby is like that, of course, but too many are and they
are often the loudest. These were the same people who claimed
that no-code hams would ruin the hobby, that the tests were
being watered down, that the hobby was ruined...and then turn
around and wonder why, "the bands are dead." Maybe because you
guys chased off everyone who was remotely interested?

Some of what you have said above could also be said about (at least parts
of) Fidonet. The same folks who want to point out that "it is dying" are
often the ones that are rudest to new sysops.


--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
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On 22 Mar 2024, Blue White said the following...

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

we had a tornado last year which for my area is mostly a once every many many years type of affair. one of the repeaters that is dead 99% of the time came alive .. was interesting to hear.

for a while almost all the information on the regular news was just information from them.. quite a bit different watching a radar on a screen vs having 40-some people checking in detailing exactly where the tornado is and which areas have trees down and building damage. plus they're a bit better than the people who call the radio stations like "OMG A TREE FELL AND I WAS SO SCARED" or whatever..

one of the guys was like "well, the tornado is pointed directly at my house, guess i have to leave" - i think he owned a trailer (no basement) - and it missed it by a little bit, but if it hadn't.. he wouldn't have known in any
reasonable amount of time without the radio.

i'm not one of those diluded "ham radio will save the world!" type of guys, but it's definitely more important than just a hobby .. sometimes :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

On 22 Mar 2024 at 09:13a, Blue White pondered and said...

Same thing with HF, frankly. A lot of old-timers are complaining
that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and
how the kids are all screwed up these days, and b) how his prostate
is acting up again. Can't say I blame them.

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

Yeah, hams like to say that, but _usually_ they overstate
what's actually going on. Most of the times, when hams are
working on a disaster, they're mostly doing health and
welfare traffic, which is important, but not as important
as they'd like to believe. Most of the time, served
organizations are better equipped than most hams.

Where hams _could_ have an outsized impact is in training
members of served organizations in how to use the gear that
they've already got. Organizations have a lot of good
equipment, but much less training in proper radio procedure,
and even less in how to use the equipment that they have
effectively.

Roughly speaking, Amateur Radio can be divided into three
categories: EmComm and emergency preparedness; contesting
and general operating (ye olde "ragchew" on the air); and building/engineering/tinkering. The first is almost always
the justification for the spectrum allocation, but is the
most precarious. The second gets a lot of attention in
ham-related media (the magazines, ARRL, etc). The third
is falling away, as the people who are inclined towards
that kind of thing aren't interested in the limitations of
the amateur service (no encryption) and hassles of other
hams acting like jerks. Can't say I blame 'em.

... Live every day as though it were your last. One day, you'll be right

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: No license operators
By: tenser to Blue White on Wed Mar 27 2024 06:54 am

most precarious. The second gets a lot of attention in
ham-related media (the magazines, ARRL, etc). The third
is falling away, as the people who are inclined towards
that kind of thing aren't interested in the limitations of
the amateur service (no encryption) and hassles of other
hams acting like jerks. Can't say I blame 'em.

Another thing is that UHF/VHF is [nearly/completely] dead in most
places, so there's nothing to get a beginner hooked without requiring
them to get yet another license and drop hundreds of dollars.

I know the cost of a decent isn't crazy compared to what expenses /could/ be,
but it's still reason enough to balk at getting more invested.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

I just want to pop into this thread because I feel like this is exactly where I'll find the people who can guide me. I am one of those people who recently had my interest piqued by the inexpensive radios from China. I bought a Quansheng, modded it, slapped a Nagoya antenna on it, but I am *new* to this. I have taken the utmost care to not operate without a license. I keep Tx turned off on the channels I'm not supposed to broadcast on, and I wouldn't dare try to transmit on the CB range since the SDR chip in this doesn't filter it properly and I took the time to understand how it can interfere on harmonic freqs without that. So I mostly just listen. But sometimes I want to join. They do trivia on the local EchoLink sometimes, and even though I'm a lot younger than the people participating, I am old enough to get all the 80's questions haha! I guess where I'm going with this is: as someone who actually cares about the etiquite of HAM and see how interesting it can be to just have convo and events with people from all over via the waves, what advice might one give me? Like in the sense of resources or whatnot. I'm currently trying to either get a new job or get into a gov't college program after being laid off last summer, so I've got some time before getting a license. But I want to. I've noticed that the people on EchoLink (I'm listening on 444.800mhz from the CN Tower) are all really chill people. I see talk of gatekeeping in this thread, but if I do get on the transmit and encounter that, I'd like to know what I'm talking about. I guess some people get these things and mod them and act all willy nilly with them, but I kind of like having this little alternate window to the world that I can carry around and want to approach it with tact.

*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]

---
* Origin: Dark Systems BBS -- Ontario CANADA -- bbs.dsbbs.ca:23 (21:1/148)

Hey that's all great stuff, this is exactly how I started into the hobby back in the early 90's
So I'm assuming you're in Canada? Mileage might vary here but in the US the FCC has ultimate say but the amateur radio system was set up so that amateurs who are registered as Volunteer Examiners (Vee-Eee's) administer the testing to get you licensed. That being said exams are usually arranged with clubs or at Ham Fests.
I'm old so we had a different license structure here starting with Novice, Tech, General, Advanced, Extra each license class came with perks such as operating privileges like getting to do voice on the world bands not just VHF or the sweet spots on the world bands like Extra's had the bottom of 40m and didn't have to deal with as much QRM (man made interference) and better access to the DX (long range) calling frequencies.
I was part of the early No-Code program that didn't require you to know morse code but restricted you to a special no-code Tech license and if we got our code endorsement (I passed 5 words a minute at a hamfest in Rochester, NY) you became Tech+ Boy I was excited that night. I was still living at home and I finally had the privileged to use my dad's FT-990 on 40M!
I used to study with the practice tests on www.qrz.com It's under the resources header on the main page.

The Amateur Radio Relay League is a good resource www.arrl.org

If you're in Canada, The Radio Amateurs of Canada www.rac.org

I'd see what you have for local ham radio clubs around too.

Try not to let old lids (bad operators) put you off, like with most hobbies it's what you put into it. A good attitude and honest outlook goes a long way. I'm always reminded, does this need to be said, does this need to be said by me, does this need to be said by me right now? Some times it's just better to Read the Mail (listing in on a net!)

Hope this is something to point you in the right direction.

best 73, es N2QFD AR SK..

--------------------------------
][ de N2QFD ][
][ Queen City BBS ][
][ queencitybbs.ddns.net:607 ][

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Queen City BBS (21:1/154)

Thank you! This is a good starting point, checking those links out.
I look forward to seeing where this goes!

---
* Origin: Dark Systems BBS -- Ontario CANADA -- bbs.dsbbs.ca:23 (21:1/148)

n2qfd wrote to All <=-

I'm curious where the general consensus is at these days about the
non licensed operators.
I've got an old co-worker who was talking about buying some baofeng
HT's and his kids and their cousins playing and enjoying them. I
remember doing this exact thing with CB radio when I was a kid but I'm
not sure they're not using amateur radio gear unlicensed.

I can't speak for others, and I might get 'shouted down' for this, but
I'll tell you my personal thoughts...

I used to geocache with a lot of friends. This was before smart phones.
It would have been nice to have a HAM license and to be able to
communicate as we were group hunting, etc. (We did a lot at night -
sometimes had a convoy of six or more cars going to another town.)

I mentioned HAM after I got my license and another cacher was NOT
interested in getting a license, but was interested in getting
some cheap radios to have in case of society collapsing. I told
him get them - listen in - you might want a license, but if not,
as soon as government collapses there will be no one to police
the airwaves - and that might be the only way you can communicate
remotely.

So that being said - I agree with you - in an urban area, yeah,
don't do it. Don't interfere and make trouble and you won't have
trouble. In a rural setting where no one is hearing them but
each other? What's it hurting?

Now having said all that, I am a Christian and I do believe in
following the law. I didn't TX until I got my ticket, but I
listened a lot while studying. If there's an emergency and
someone gets help by transmitting out of band or with no
license? Fine with me!

The old timers all said, "this will end up as
CB for taking down the challenges!"

I've heard that too - I don't see it though... Not around
here anyway...





... Hookd on foniks wurkd for mee!
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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tenser wrote to n2qfd <=-

So, if people behave like that, why would a young person be
motivated to study for and then _pay money_ to get licensed?
Just to be verbally abused by some jerk on the air? No, thank
you.

One of my best friends was a scout leader when his kids were
still young enough to be scouts. One of them was interested
in HAM - at least interested enough to wonder about it. Turns
out that was all, but at least he was interested a little.

I took him out to my truck one day and showed him my mobile
unit and BRIEFLY explained repeaters. When I made my call,
I said I had a scout with me that was interested. I knew if
I didn't I'd either get crickets or just general "oh well"
stuff. Got a call back immediately with a dripping 'salesman'
sound. LOL

For people buying the Baofengs on Amazon and treating them
like souped-up walkie talkies, I can see why: you don't have
to put up with the asshatery, if you're even aware of the
licensing requirements in the first place. So if someone
buys a cheap HT and talks around the neighborhood, does it really
hurt anyone? Probably not. Are there hams who are going to
get seriously bent out of shape about it? Yes, absolutely. Do
I care about their opinions? Mostly no.

As you say below with Cell phones and video chat, it's not something
that is NEEDED (as long as the network is up at least). I had those
cheap walkie talkies as a kid and one of my brothers found out
(by accident) that if he turned his 23 channel CB to channel 17
he could TX and RX with me - if I was close enough to shout to
him anyway. LOL

So if I were a kid today and had a chance to have a $30 'walkie
talkie' that my buddy could get one like, and I was careful to
stay off any freq that local guys were using? Yeah - I'd probably
do it - and if I hear any of that on the air today I'll share the
fact that if they get licensed they can do this all around the
world, etc. etc.

that no one wants to upgrade and work HF. Why would they? I can
pick up a phone and call pretty much anywhere in the world for
no incremental cost over my usual service. I can voice and video
chat someone on the other side of the planet in real time over the Internet similarly. The niche that radio once held is gone, and

I use HAM for reasons that phone/internet can't do - to reach out
over the air and talk to people I don't know. People I do not have
a relationship with already.

Kinda like BBS's and echonets! Sure, it's not private, but I don't
care - that's part of the appeal. :-)





... Does the National Ballet travel by Tu Tu Train?
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n2qfd wrote to tenser <=-

So, I haven't even bothered with the local club. It's not that I don't value the things like having some nice digipeaters around for almost no-one to use APRS on! It's the role crazed jerks. Yellow Vest+Radio doesn't make you an authority any more than years in. And with just as interesting of avenues outside the license I can play radio with my Android, My WiFi gear heck even getting back to BBS and deciding to
start one here.

I joined the local right before getting my ticket. Actually took my
test with the club - but fell out as the monthly meeting confliced
with a family get together that started. Now that I'm getting BACK
into it, I might join again, but not high priority. Local traffic
is practically NIL so I'm currently moving a mobile inside and putting
an antenna on the roof to hopefully 'reach out' to areas where there
IS a lot of chatter...

I'm a young ham in my mid 40's now and I've buried most of my
friends. I sometimes check into a DMR net which is just VoIP with more steps. The conversation hasn't changes in 30 years and the
experimenters and the innovators don't seem to be there saying "hey I'm trying this with my gear what do you think?"
Is is disappointing? Maybe a little, but things change. I'm working
some fun digital modes we didn't have but even that seems like it's too much work for the many out there. >>Key up repeater|run down current times|willfully forget that what it was, wasn't always there either.<<

I haven't done anything with digital yet... I work in IT and when I get
on the radio it's to have an analog conversation - kinda like BBS but with voice. :-)

I do pop in to - oh what's it called - echolink? I almost said echonet but
knew that wasn't right. LOL




... Old immortals don't die, they just... don't.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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Blue White wrote to tenser <=-

The niche may be gone until there is an emergency of some sort. A few years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had an unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to turn
to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of
communication were overwhelmed or not working.

Are you in Kentucky by chance? When I was getting my ticket 8 years
ago a local radio guy (not a HAM, but works for the place that
services the police and sheriff as well as fire) was telling me
about an instance in Kentucky where the lines were broken and
they couldn't even talk to the capitol without the HAM guys...






... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had

an

unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to

turn

to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

Are you in Kentucky by chance? When I was getting my ticket 8 years
ago a local radio guy (not a HAM, but works for the place that
services the police and sheriff as well as fire) was telling me
about an instance in Kentucky where the lines were broken and
they couldn't even talk to the capitol without the HAM guys...

LOL, sure enough. ;) I was listening to the HAMS on my scanner to get
info about what was going on.



--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
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Blue White wrote to jimmylogan <=-

years back... well, 30 now, doesn't seem that long ago... we had

an

unusually heavy snowstorm for this area. The authorities had to

turn

to the local HAM community for assistance as other forms of communication were overwhelmed or not working.

Are you in Kentucky by chance? When I was getting my ticket 8 years
ago a local radio guy (not a HAM, but works for the place that
services the police and sheriff as well as fire) was telling me
about an instance in Kentucky where the lines were broken and
they couldn't even talk to the capitol without the HAM guys...

LOL, sure enough. ;) I was listening to the HAMS on my scanner to get info about what was going on.

Very cool! What part of Kentucky? I'm just outside Dyersburg, TN and
can hit the repeaters in Union City - been trying to hit Cayce, Ky
just outside Hickman, but no one has responded...





... Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

Are you in Kentucky by chance? When I was getting my ticket 8 years
ago a local radio guy (not a HAM, but works for the place that
services the police and sheriff as well as fire) was telling me
about an instance in Kentucky where the lines were broken and
they couldn't even talk to the capitol without the HAM guys...

LOL, sure enough. ;) I was listening to the HAMS on my scanner

to get

info about what was going on.

Very cool! What part of Kentucky? I'm just outside Dyersburg, TN and
can hit the repeaters in Union City - been trying to hit Cayce, Ky
just outside Hickman, but no one has responded...

At that time, I was living in Louisville. I have been living near
Frankfort for 25+ years now.

Cayce was supposedly named after Casey Jones. ;)



--- Talisman v0.53-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * telnet:24/ssh:2122/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Blue White wrote to jimmylogan <=-

At that time, I was living in Louisville. I have been living near Frankfort for 25+ years now.

Cayce was supposedly named after Casey Jones. ;)

I've heard that! I played music at an old school a few years ago.
A local country/line dancing place.





... Teamwork is critical; it allows you to blame someone else.
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